bacon
All-Conference
Posts: 55
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Post by bacon on Oct 24, 2007 11:43:11 GMT -5
From his first ILRunner entry:
You can argue that he should be able to break 2, but according to him, he has never done it. Regardless, the number of guys that can beat him in a 800 is much larger then the number of guys who can beat him in a XC race.
There was a discussion on what speed a high school runner should be kicking it in at. Clearly, noone had any recent and accurate numbers to work with. I found some.
I would say that the fact that an elite runner, at conference, on a track, trying to break 14 can only run a 25 sec. 160m would suggust that on a real course under normal conditions, most good runners would probably be much slower.
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Post by badkarma96 on Oct 24, 2007 12:10:18 GMT -5
From his first ILRunner entry: You can argue that he should be able to break 2, but according to him, he has never done it. Regardless, the number of guys that can beat him in a 800 is much larger then the number of guys who can beat him in a XC race. There was a discussion on what speed a high school runner should be kicking it in at. Clearly, noone had any recent and accurate numbers to work with. I found some. I would say that the fact that an elite runner, at conference, on a track, trying to break 14 can only run a 25 sec. 160m would suggust that on a real course under normal conditions, most good runners would probably be much slower. I forgot to mention that everytime I run the last 0.1 of a 5k in less than thirty seconds I vomit quite spectacularly. I've only done it three times, in 17 years of distance running, and each time. . . wow. Bacon, how much slower are you thinking most good runners would run the last 160 of race. Two seconds? Three seconds? I wonder how fast Smoody can do it? He is a 1:53 guy isn't he?
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Post by dbandre on Oct 24, 2007 13:02:47 GMT -5
You have 2 problems, one is fatigue and the other is the math used to predict abilities up or down in distance using something known as the 4s rule.
Lets start out with Derrick's and go backwards.
at 13:57 he's running 3 miles at 69-70s per 400m. for a 2 mile race he should be able to run 65-66s per 400m (8:40-8:48 3200m) for a 1 mile race he should be able to run 61-62 per 400m (4:04-4:08 1600m) for an 800m race he should be able to run 57-58s per 400m (1:54-1:56). with a base 400m speed of 53s and capable of 24s in 200m.
The noteworthy items are the 3200m and 1600m projections, for a guy how ran 8:57 for 3200m last year these are entirely plausible.
The things to consider for determining a runner's speed during a kick, the course (surface compliance,elevation changes, etc.), the pace at which the runner is running the race, the runners ability to reaccelerate, his ability to produce a high maximal velocity, and finally the ability to maintain that velocity in sprint like fashion. Maybe Derrick isn't comfortable about getting out fast like what is required for a proper 800m race, but needs some time to get warmed up then finally just kick it in.
Finally, to my first point, at the end of any race for any distance a runner will be tired and fatigue has set in. The limiting factor in producing speed is application of forces (forces cause motion) which comes down to strength(ability to produce/withstand forces). Strength is diminished after running, don't believe this??? Test yourself or your athletes someday with a weight session before running and one after a running workout on another day within the same week but not on consecutive days, same weights and same running workout. The times and lifts will be different. The kick speed a distance runner ultimately has if not entirely spent is about the same pace as that runner would runner in race 2 levels below in the case of 3 miles it is the estimated 1mile effort and that for Mr. Derrick is 61-62s/400m and at 47s for 300m he's awfully close at 62.5s/400m. He's not able to run as fast as he possibly could (base 400m), but he's running incredibly close to what an 800m/1600m runner should be able to do in the same race.
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Post by xcrunner15 on Oct 24, 2007 17:48:55 GMT -5
i dont know if anyones said it yet, but ill make sure that it is understood: it doesnt matter how good of a kick he has, you add on his average 200 pace for the race. HEAR ME OUT
Every runner or most runners have some type of a kick at the end of every race. Thats a given
Our race happens to be 3 miles
Holmes race was 3.04 or closer .05 meaning that extra .05 is run in 17 seconds.
You dont have two kicks! Say Holmes normally kicks from 200 meters out, just because u add the .04 doesnt mean he is going to kick the 200 meters plus the extra .04. He is still going to kick 200 meters. MEANING that the extra .04 that is run should be converted by his race pace. So if Holmes ran a 16:10 for a 3.04 race that means the extra .04 is about 15-17 seconds or his race pace.
If you still dont understand it, its like this: Holmes is not sprinting the extra .04. he is still sprinting the same amount he always does. Therefore, you convert the .04 to his average race pace, which is a bout 15-17 seconds giving him a time of 15:55 for 3, obviously jogging for him
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Post by runninman447 on Oct 24, 2007 19:15:23 GMT -5
thank you for someone finally pointed that out i have had argument with many ppl about the same thing
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Post by dbandre on Oct 24, 2007 20:52:12 GMT -5
The last .04 mile at Holmes race pace = roughly 12.76s it's just less than 65m so I don't think he's running it 17s. Maybe 13.5-14s at the most.
Here's the math genius,
16 * 60 + 10 = 970s 3.04 / .04 = 76 (.04 mile segments in the race)
970/76 = 12.76316s per .04 mile segment
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Post by qcyrunner on Oct 24, 2007 20:59:42 GMT -5
I think someone needs to press the Staples button after that last reply! ;D
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Post by xcrunner15 on Oct 24, 2007 21:32:26 GMT -5
.04 converted is actually 80 meters, and by running the race at close to 5:18 pace, or a 15:54, it averages that his pace per 400 is 79.5 and 200 would then be 39.75. his 100 would be close enough to 20 making his 80 16 seconds
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Post by dbandre on Oct 24, 2007 22:58:51 GMT -5
Once again genius,
.04 * 1609.334m = 64.37m
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bacon
All-Conference
Posts: 55
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Post by bacon on Oct 25, 2007 9:23:36 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is arguing that adding distance to the race adds distance to the kick. I think someone accidently said something along that lines, they were corrected, and the conversation is now about how fast someone should be able to kick.
Badkarma96 asked me how fast i think someone should be able to kick, and my answer is it depends. How long do they kick? I was never one to hit the go button and take off. I tended to do a half mile pickup at the end my races. That was because I lacked the leg speed of most the people around me, so my only hope was to gain more ground with a longer (and slower) kick then i lost when the other guy hit the jets.
dbandre - that leads me to 2 questions on your 4s/drop two race paces theory: 1) How long of a kick are you proposing the typical runner do under this theory?
2) I understand the drop in race, drop in pace 4s rule. However, why is 3 miles to 2 miles a full drop? all the other drops are by a factor of 2, not 1.5.
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Post by dbandre on Oct 25, 2007 10:06:43 GMT -5
For a kick anywhere over a 200m and less than 600m, add 4s per 400m if you are in the 600m-1000m, take off 2s if you are less than 200m. Those aren't absolutes, but you will find most trained runners within these guidelines. Remember the perfect race has no kick per se.
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