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Post by slowrunner on Sept 11, 2007 18:53:19 GMT -5
hmmmm i dont no any1 thats good on rolling meadows
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Post by coolrunner4 on Sept 11, 2007 20:49:32 GMT -5
The only problem i have with 3 A is that it completly screws over Catholic schools who get bumped up becasue of the bogus multiplier. Loyola, Fenwick, Marmion, Benet and a ton of other decent Catholic schools are getting screwed.
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Post by ccaddict on Sept 12, 2007 9:43:05 GMT -5
In reply to lwcxc & a few others: thanks for the information -I didn't know that only the top ten individuals are good enough runners that deserve scholorships -I didn't know that only the top 5 teams deserve anything anyway and finishing sixth at state is not an accomplishment
and, assuming the "lw" in "lwcsc" stands for Lincoln Way, it must be nice to be sent to a sectional where you will be seeded fourth versus the Schaumburg sectional where you be seeded ninth. Where would your "trio" finish at the Schaumburg sectionals? Not in the top ten.
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lwcxc
All-Conference
Posts: 57
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Post by lwcxc on Sept 12, 2007 14:16:09 GMT -5
In reply to lwcxc & a few others: thanks for the information -I didn't know that only the top ten individuals are good enough runners that deserve scholorships -I didn't know that only the top 5 teams deserve anything anyway and finishing sixth at state is not an accomplishment and, assuming the "lw" in "lwcsc" stands for Lincoln Way, it must be nice to be sent to a sectional where you will be seeded fourth versus the Schaumburg sectional where you be seeded ninth. Where would your "trio" finish at the Schaumburg sectionals? Not in the top ten. Wow...that's not close to what I meant, but I'll bite and respond. That post was in response to a post that claimed that an individual who didn't make it out of the Schaumburg sectional would place 6th or 7th in the state meet. I simply listed a number of quality individuals from other sectionals who are likely to be all-state who might have something to say in the matter. I never said anything about the 6th place team being somehow worthy of our denigration or the 11th place individual not being worthy of scholarships. Both of those (or anything close to that) are outstanding accomplishments. You sound pretty upset, but I have no idea how you got that statement from my post. In defense of Lincoln-Way East, both Troester and Scott-Stirn were in the top 35 at state last year and both of them broke 15:00 at the Lyons Invitational. So, yeah, I like their chances at any sectional in the state, even Schaumburg. Even so, I'm not going to apologize for being in a "weaker" sectional. Both LWC and LWE will go to the Normal sectional and compete to the best of our abilities. At the end of the day, regardless of the sectional we've been placed in, we all just have to shut up and run.
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Post by historian on Sept 12, 2007 16:26:52 GMT -5
Let's keep perspective on the issue of qualifying for state / running top twenty five. Last year, the last individual qualifying runner from any AA sectional was never more than about 1:10 behind the sectional champ. Three Chicago area sectionals went down to 19th to 24th spot for the last individual qualifier. Only the St Charles Sectional from the Chicago area cut off at 10th. No sectional had all their individual qualifiers make All- State.
And - the top four runners at State came from four different sectionals, and a fifth sectional provided #7 and #8. So, five of the six sectionals had runners finish in the top seven. Pretty balanced at the top as far as individuals go. The only sectional not represented was Centralia, mostly now in "AA"- and not so long ago Edwardsville had a state champ, and Decatur a state runnerup the next year.
The time for All-State will be very close to the same times as last year, maybe faster, maybe slower, depending on the weather. And the gap will be less than one minute, and much less than that from 5th to 25th, just like always. (I researched the gap from 5th to 25th - it has always been less than 30 seconds going back to 1996 ) The meet will be highly competitive, and very fast.
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Post by ccaddict on Sept 13, 2007 15:14:40 GMT -5
Historian has some good points from last year which support the argument for having more sectionals. The facts this year(if the rankings are correct), 16 of top 24 teams are in one sectional and thus 11 of the the top 24 teams will not go to the state meet. Also, 16 of the top 25 individuals are in one sectional. 7 of the these 16 individuals are on teams that will not qualify, thus two of the top 25 individual runners will not go to the state meet. Please name me any high school sport which includes only 13 of the top 24 teams in a final competition.
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Post by LemontXC17 on Sept 13, 2007 16:46:08 GMT -5
hmmmm i dont no any1 thats good on rolling meadows kevin clark is a pretty solid runner from rollowing meadows
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Post by dgndad on Sept 13, 2007 21:46:42 GMT -5
The key to that whole post right here, imo! I think sometimes we forget why we do what we do! That is just a pladitude. Most kids run because it is something they can succeed at. Yes it is fun--when you run well. The Regionals/Sectionals/State is about COMPETITION. The point is that a too many top 20 teams won't get to state, replaced by inferior teams that did not have to compete at the same level.
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Post by 800man on Sept 14, 2007 11:12:39 GMT -5
The only problem i have with 3 A is that it completly screws over Catholic schools who get bumped up becasue of the bogus multiplier. Loyola, Fenwick, Marmion, Benet and a ton of other decent Catholic schools are getting screwed. There is a legitimate reason for the multiplier. Whether they use a proper one or not is a good question. Whether you want ot believe it or not, the private schools have a distinct advantage in being able to pull from a larger geographic base than public schools.
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Post by runningonempty on Sept 14, 2007 11:33:14 GMT -5
There is a legitimate reason for the multiplier. Whether they use a proper one or not is a good question. Whether you want ot believe it or not, the private schools have a distinct advantage in being able to pull from a larger geographic base than public schools.
[/quote]
I agree 100 %. You take the private Rockford schools. Rather they recruit or not, they still get to draw from Winnebago county, Boone County, and Ogle county all within a 30-45 minute drive of these schools. These counties have over 300.000 people in them. Throw in Rock county in Wisconsin and you have a base of close to 400,000 you can draw from. I know some of the private schools have kids from as far away as Dekalb and Stephenson counties attending them. Now you are going to sit there and tell me they are on equal footing as a district that has under 5000 people in it?
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Post by qcyrunner on Sept 14, 2007 11:35:38 GMT -5
The only problem i have with 3 A is that it completly screws over Catholic schools who get bumped up becasue of the bogus multiplier. Loyola, Fenwick, Marmion, Benet and a ton of other decent Catholic schools are getting screwed. There is a legitimate reason for the multiplier. Whether they use a proper one or not is a good question. Whether you want ot believe it or not, the private schools have a distinct advantage in being able to pull from a larger geographic base than public schools. To the top post quoted this makes no sense. Up until this year you competed against the current AAA schools every year by virtue of your actual enrollment size making your school AA. Class A privates moved up and also competed against AA and did well last season. To me you are simply status quo but disappointed that your school couldn't stay in the new AA. Hey, we'd like to have stayed in Class A but the membership voted and the vote said multiplier. AA for us isn't so bad even though we are amongst the lowest actual enrollment schools in AA.
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Post by acccoachk on Sept 14, 2007 20:02:43 GMT -5
I find it interesting that anyone on this thread who are obviously against private schools don't believe that certain public schools recruit? It happens all the time! Where is their multiplier? Most private schools accept enrollment from a logistically concentrated area, without that concept we wouldn't have private schools!
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Post by 800man on Sept 20, 2007 15:34:51 GMT -5
I find it interesting that anyone on this thread who are obviously against private schools don't believe that certain public schools recruit? It happens all the time! Where is their multiplier? Most private schools accept enrollment from a logistically concentrated area, without that concept we wouldn't have private schools! Public schools recruit?? I don't know what you are referring too but our school is limited strictly to the kids in our tax district. A school like Sycamore can't go to Rochelle or Dekalb to "recruit" runners. They get what they get based on who pays taxes in that school district. That distrcit is also pretty well defined. Now, at least two private schools have sent "coaches" to watch guys at our schools during football and soccer practice. Have approached them after practice and our coaches told them to get off the property. This has happened in the last two years. Also guys have been "recruited" in middle school for these private high schools. I have no problem with the private schools, they need their students and athletes too, but they do draw ( on the whole ) from a larger base which can be more select. Hence a mulitplier. Like I stated earlier, I agree with applying a multiplier, I just don't know where they derived their number from and if it is the most appropriate. It would seem that they are pretty close in the major sports though. There always seems to be at least one private school in the football playoffs/finals.
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Post by xxcrunner on Sept 20, 2007 20:04:02 GMT -5
From the Dyestat board - one could argue 19 individuals with sub 15 potential are going to compete for 7 spots - the real race is in Schaumburg
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Current Week 3 IPTT rankings - if you assume Schaumburg Sectionals follow rankings (which is a big if):
Just using Woodruff and PND races (M Schumacher, Denk, Vlcek - don't think they ran in either but all three are definite sub 15 capable):
1 Elmhurst York - Team Quailfy 2 Wheaton North - Team Qualify 3 Naperville North -Team Qualify 4 Geneva - Team Quailfy 5 St. Charles North - Team Qualify 6 LaGrange Lyons Township Keeler 14:52; Janusek 14:53; Kehoe 15:14 7 Schaumburg Rutz 14:54;Lesiweicz 14:58; Seimetz 15:22 8 Hoffman Estates Conant Thode 15:07; Fuchs 15:25 9 Hoffman Estates Not run in these meets 10 Aurora Waubonsie Valley David Schumacher 15:34; M Schumacher ? 11 Downers Grove South Schmid 15:30 12 Darien Hinsdale South Denk, Vlcek ? 13 Downers Grove North B Silver 14:56; A Silver 15:28 14 Naperville Central Couch 15:09; Thayer 15:26 15 Roselle Lake Park ? 16 Wheaton-Warrenville South Peck 15:17; Casa 15:20 17 Lisle Benet Academy ? 18 Batavia ? 19 Aurora East ? 20 St. Charles East ?
? don't know teams well enough to guess if they have a potential sub 15
But at least 19 runners have either already run sub 15 or are within striking range of it - so 12 of them will never make it out of Schaumburg
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Post by happyranker on Sept 20, 2007 21:02:11 GMT -5
From the Dyestat board - one could argue 19 individuals with sub 15 potential are going to compete for 7 spots - the real race is in Schaumburg -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Current Week 3 IPTT rankings - if you assume Schaumburg Sectionals follow rankings (which is a big if): Just using Woodruff and PND races (M Schumacher, Denk, Vlcek - don't think they ran in either but all three are definite sub 15 capable): 1 Elmhurst York - Team Quailfy 2 Wheaton North - Team Qualify 3 Naperville North -Team Qualify 4 Geneva - Team Quailfy 5 St. Charles North - Team Qualify 6 LaGrange Lyons Township Keeler 14:52; Janusek 14:53; Kehoe 15:14 7 Schaumburg Rutz 14:54;Lesiweicz 14:58; Seimetz 15:22 8 Hoffman Estates Conant Thode 15:07; Fuchs 15:25 9 Hoffman Estates Not run in these meets 10 Aurora Waubonsie Valley David Schumacher 15:34; M Schumacher ? 11 Downers Grove South Schmid 15:30 12 Darien Hinsdale South Denk, Vlcek ? 13 Downers Grove North B Silver 14:56; A Silver 15:28 14 Naperville Central Couch 15:09; Thayer 15:26 15 Roselle Lake Park ? 16 Wheaton-Warrenville South Peck 15:17; Casa 15:20 17 Lisle Benet Academy ? 18 Batavia ? 19 Aurora East ? 20 St. Charles East ? ? don't know teams well enough to guess if they have a potential sub 15 But at least 19 runners have either already run sub 15 or are within striking range of it - so 12 of them will never make it out of Schaumburg those are some very questionable ranking, may i suggest that you do a little more homework before you put those up
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Post by slowrunner on Sept 20, 2007 21:36:51 GMT -5
happyranker, i must say your expertise is not in class AAA, stick to A and AA fella
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Post by 800man on Sept 21, 2007 10:47:07 GMT -5
From the Dyestat board - one could argue 19 individuals with sub 15 potential are going to compete for 7 spots - the real race is in Schaumburg -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Current Week 3 IPTT rankings - if you assume Schaumburg Sectionals follow rankings (which is a big if): Just using Woodruff and PND races (M Schumacher, Denk, Vlcek - don't think they ran in either but all three are definite sub 15 capable): 1 Elmhurst York - Team Quailfy 2 Wheaton North - Team Qualify 3 Naperville North -Team Qualify 4 Geneva - Team Quailfy 5 St. Charles North - Team Qualify 6 LaGrange Lyons Township Keeler 14:52; Janusek 14:53; Kehoe 15:14 7 Schaumburg Rutz 14:54;Lesiweicz 14:58; Seimetz 15:22 8 Hoffman Estates Conant Thode 15:07; Fuchs 15:25 9 Hoffman Estates Not run in these meets 10 Aurora Waubonsie Valley David Schumacher 15:34; M Schumacher ? 11 Downers Grove South Schmid 15:30 12 Darien Hinsdale South Denk, Vlcek ? 13 Downers Grove North B Silver 14:56; A Silver 15:28 14 Naperville Central Couch 15:09; Thayer 15:26 15 Roselle Lake Park ? 16 Wheaton-Warrenville South Peck 15:17; Casa 15:20 17 Lisle Benet Academy ? 18 Batavia ? 19 Aurora East ? 20 St. Charles East ? ? don't know teams well enough to guess if they have a potential sub 15 But at least 19 runners have either already run sub 15 or are within striking range of it - so 12 of them will never make it out of Schaumburg those are some very questionable ranking, may i suggest that you do a little more homework before you put those up He was quoting the IPTT rankings and adding who would get out of that sectional. What's the problem with that? Those are also based on mostly performances at the two peoria meets.
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Post by happyranker on Sept 21, 2007 17:06:08 GMT -5
those are some very questionable ranking, may i suggest that you do a little more homework before you put those up He was quoting the IPTT rankings and adding who would get out of that sectional. What's the problem with that? Those are also based on mostly performances at the two peoria meets. yes i have a big problem 800man!! they are basing most of their facts on only two races
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Post by slowrunner on Sept 21, 2007 18:55:19 GMT -5
wow happyranker you seem to have a lot of good facts because you always tell people to get thier facts straight. good work big fella! so what are the facts that you know that noone else does?
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Post by 800man on Sept 22, 2007 0:10:12 GMT -5
He was quoting the IPTT rankings and adding who would get out of that sectional. What's the problem with that? Those are also based on mostly performances at the two peoria meets. yes i have a big problem 800man!! they are basing most of their facts on only two races They ( IPTT/Michael Newman ) are basing their ratings on info they received from coaches, what they know from teams performancein the past and results so far this year. Why is York ranked so high, it is certainly not from their performances so far this year, they really don't race unitl the Palatine invite. Remember again, it's only the 3rd week of the season, things will be chaning and solidfying over the next three weeks. This is all just for fun.
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Post by xxcrunner on Sept 22, 2007 20:42:21 GMT -5
LOL - Happyranker relax.
The rankings I used were IPTT's - If fact I noted that the at large candidates were listed if the Sectional actually followed rankings which may or may not happen.
The point was and still is that 19 runners that have already demonstrated this year the "potential" to run sub-15, and on the same course that the State meet is run on, will be competing for 7 spots.
12 of them will not get the chance to be All-State since they won't escape Schaumburg.
The Schaumburg Sectional has more talent in it that the other three Sectionals combined - that is the way it is - runners in that particular sectional are going to have three hard races (Regionals, Sectionals, State).
My homework is extremely solid - you have failed to comprehend the point and need to slow down and read so you understand.
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Post by ccaddict on Sept 23, 2007 12:50:27 GMT -5
thanks xxcrunner! You actually are underestimating the number of runners that will be left at the Schaumburg sectional, because Hoffman. Benet and others will be at Peoria next week. Plus, I'm sure there are some very good runners at Schaumburg sectional that qualified for the sectional but are not on the top 25 teams in the state. This whole subject is unbelievable, but true.
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Post by happyranker on Sept 23, 2007 16:43:47 GMT -5
LOL - Happyranker relax. The rankings I used were IPTT's - If fact I noted that the at large candidates were listed if the Sectional actually followed rankings which may or may not happen. The point was and still is that 19 runners that have already demonstrated this year the "potential" to run sub-15, and on the same course that the State meet is run on, will be competing for 7 spots. 12 of them will not get the chance to be All-State since they won't escape Schaumburg. The Schaumburg Sectional has more talent in it that the other three Sectionals combined - that is the way it is - runners in that particular sectional are going to have three hard races (Regionals, Sectionals, State). My homework is extremely solid - you have failed to comprehend the point and need to slow down and read so you understand. lets be reasonable xxcrunner. to say that the shaumburg sectional has more talent then all the other sectionaly combined is way over the top. get your facts straight!
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Post by kenyakid08 on Sept 23, 2007 18:21:59 GMT -5
lets do some math here happy ranker 17 of the top 25 in one top 25=best top 25 in the state 25-17= 12 schools that arent in schaumburg 17>12 those other 12 schools also arent lumped in one other sectional
and by the way, for all you in favor of the multiplyer, although you can travel in order to attend a private school, most ctholic administrations DO NOT allow recruiting
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Post by historian on Sept 23, 2007 18:33:10 GMT -5
Let's be realistic - no "athletic recruiting" is done by school administrators or official coaches. This isn't college. The "recruiting" is done by parents talking to other parents, kids talking to other kids. Nothing "illegal" about that, but, clearly, a typical public school cannot pull kids to their school through those type of means. Private schools admissions can jump boundaries at will, regardless of why a student elects to attend. A public school cannot.
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Post by slowrunner on Sept 23, 2007 18:59:16 GMT -5
lets do some math here happy ranker 17 of the top 25 in one top 25=best top 25 in the state 25-17= 12 schools that arent in schaumburg 17>12 those other 12 schools also arent lumped in one other sectional and by the way, for all you in favor of the multiplyer, although you can travel in order to attend a private school, most ctholic administrations DO NOT allow recruiting wow great math!!!! i mean how did u figure out that top 25 actually means top25. absolute genius, and totally essential to say that. oh yea you officially found out that 25-17=12. every other person in the world thinks it is 8 but you discovered that it is really 12. i totally approve of this post because the schaumburg sectional has almost all the best teams. oh yeah the multiplier sucks it should only be for football and maybe basketball
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Post by xxcrunner on Sept 23, 2007 21:10:54 GMT -5
LOL - Happyranker relax. The rankings I used were IPTT's - If fact I noted that the at large candidates were listed if the Sectional actually followed rankings which may or may not happen. The point was and still is that 19 runners that have already demonstrated this year the "potential" to run sub-15, and on the same course that the State meet is run on, will be competing for 7 spots. 12 of them will not get the chance to be All-State since they won't escape Schaumburg. The Schaumburg Sectional has more talent in it that the other three Sectionals combined - that is the way it is - runners in that particular sectional are going to have three hard races (Regionals, Sectionals, State). My homework is extremely solid - you have failed to comprehend the point and need to slow down and read so you understand. lets be reasonable xxcrunner. to say that the shaumburg sectional has more talent then all the other sectionaly combined is way over the top. get your facts straight! The facts are that there is more talent (Top Teams and Number of Runners) in Schaumburg than the other three combined. If you dispute the facts I am using, you would gain some credibility if you countered with some facts of your own in place of meaningless banter. Until you provide better facts I consider mine accurate. I am not even arguing if it is right or wrong, but several runners will not survive Schaumburg and would qualify in any of the other Sectionals even on an average day. My guess is that you are one of the fortunate ones to be in an easy sectional and feel very confident you will go to state. Going to state will still be a great accomplishment; even if you qualify with from an easy sectional. There is always an inbalance in any system; this year it happens to be an extreme inbalance.
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Post by coolrunner4 on Sept 23, 2007 23:42:51 GMT -5
I would like to reply to the many problems peopel had with my statement about the Cahtolic Schools getting screwed. In the history of the IHSA, there has never been one Catholic School that has won state for cross country, only 8 have taken home trophies. Also, only one runner in the past ten year has placed in the top ten at the state meet, David Grange from Marmion. The iHSA says we have a deistinct advantage, but we dont. CC is dominated by the public schools. Also, i know for a fact that Benet Academy doesnt recruit, and theyve been arguably the best Catholic School program in the past few years. Also, public schools have had more evidence of recruiting then Catholic schools. The Dettman twins moved into the York school district so they could run there...
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Post by 800man on Sept 24, 2007 0:15:06 GMT -5
I would like to reply to the many problems peopel had with my statement about the Cahtolic Schools getting screwed. In the history of the IHSA, there has never been one Catholic School that has won state for cross country, only 8 have taken home trophies. Also, only one runner in the past ten year has placed in the top ten at the state meet, David Grange from Marmion. The iHSA says we have a deistinct advantage, but we dont. CC is dominated by the public schools. Also, i know for a fact that Benet Academy doesnt recruit, and theyve been arguably the best Catholic School program in the past few years. Also, public schools have had more evidence of recruiting then Catholic schools. The Dettman twins moved into the York school district so they could run there... OK, I'll bite. First of all my main belief is that like any other school, the private schools concentrate onthe money generating sports, Football, Boys Basketball, and Baseball. After all percentage wise the "private" schools win a disproportionate amount of football titles. In running it may not take place, but just like the goofy sectional alignments this year how do you apply mulitpliers in one sport and not the others. There have been some private school champs. Patton from St. Ignatius in 1980, Sitko from Notre Dame ( Niles ) in 95 or 96. In Track, Robbins from Loyola in the 1600 this spring. I've always heard the rumours about the Dettman's but were they recruited or did their potential and developement with York outweigh staying at a non power-Willowbrook HS. As far as "Catholic" schools not recruiting I call B.S. I have a Brother-in law that was recruited for and played Football and Baseball by a south subruban catholic school.
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Post by coolrunner4 on Sept 24, 2007 18:26:39 GMT -5
I would like to reply to the many problems peopel had with my statement about the Cahtolic Schools getting screwed. In the history of the IHSA, there has never been one Catholic School that has won state for cross country, only 8 have taken home trophies. Also, only one runner in the past ten year has placed in the top ten at the state meet, David Grange from Marmion. The iHSA says we have a deistinct advantage, but we dont. CC is dominated by the public schools. Also, i know for a fact that Benet Academy doesnt recruit, and theyve been arguably the best Catholic School program in the past few years. Also, public schools have had more evidence of recruiting then Catholic schools. The Dettman twins moved into the York school district so they could run there... OK, I'll bite. First of all my main belief is that like any other school, the private schools concentrate onthe money generating sports, Football, Boys Basketball, and Baseball. After all percentage wise the "private" schools win a disproportionate amount of football titles. In running it may not take place, but just like the goofy sectional alignments this year how do you apply mulitpliers in one sport and not the others. There have been some private school champs. Patton from St. Ignatius in 1980, Sitko from Notre Dame ( Niles ) in 95 or 96. In Track, Robbins from Loyola in the 1600 this spring. I've always heard the rumours about the Dettman's but were they recruited or did their potential and developement with York outweigh staying at a non power-Willowbrook HS. As far as "Catholic" schools not recruiting I call B.S. I have a Brother-in law that was recruited for and played Football and Baseball by a south subruban catholic school. Your absolutly right when it comes to Catholic schools focusing on the money generating sports. And im sure for many schools, recruiting is prevalent for those sports. And while there have been some success with the Catholic schools in running, there has not been a disproortionate amount like in football ( Joliet Catholic and Mount Carmel) taht warrant a need for the multiplier. I dont see how it is so difficult to exempt the sports where Catholic Schools do not do exceptionally well. Lets put this in perspective. Benet Academy has about 1300 kids, thats 650 boys. Naperville North has about 300 kids, and 1500 boys.While Benet has done reasonably well and held there own back in 2 A, it is simply unfair to lump them in with these huge powerhouse schools when Benet deserves to be in 2 A. (Benet and all the other good Catholic School programs)
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